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* There were no Jews at Mt Sinai with Moses. Judaism was not a religion given to the Jews, but it was the religion given to the Israelites.
* You can not make yourself a descendant of the Israelites nor can you cease to be a descendant of the Israelites.

I suppose all have heard it said "You are a Jew if your mother is a Jew"

After hearing this for a few years, I began to consider the ramifications of such an assertion.

I already had a web page debunking this myth and recently I took my question to Yahoo Answers to find out if there was any information that would bust my bubble.

Yes, forums like Yahoo Answers or any debate/discussion group is a way to find answers to your questions.

When ever you pose a question you will get all kind of non responses:

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Non responses to my challenge to "You are a Jew if your mother was a Jew", there could have never been any such things as Jews.

* At the age of forty, Abraham recognized his Creator... He began to debate with the people of Ur Casdim... He smashed the idols, and began to teach the people that it is only fitting to serve the one G-d... He continued to call in a great voice to the world, teaching them that there is one G-d for the entire universe, and that He alone is it fitting to serve. He carried his call from city to city and from kingdom to kingdom... Many gathered to ask about his words, and he would explain to each according to his understanding until he had shown him the path of truth. Thousands and then tens of thousands joined him...and he implanted this great principle in their heart and wrote many books on it. After Abraham's passing, Isaac, and then Jacob, continued his work, until Jacob's descendants, and those who joined them, formed a nation that knew G-d."

* "Is Abraham the first recorded in the scriptures that served God"

* Abraham followed God, and sealed the covenant with God, (beginning the covenant) when he circumcised himself. that is the beginning point of Judaism.

* Abraham was the first convert, problem solved.

* Abraham was the first monotheist, which is why he is considered by the Torah to be the first Jew.

* As RW correctly states, Abraham was the founder of Judaism, though technically speaking he was a Hebrew.

* As to the way you demand from us an answer about what our scripture says - you seem to be Misunderstanding something. I'll enlighten you:

* by Maimonides (Rabbi Moshe Ben-Maimon).

* Conversion has always been possible in Judaism

* From the first chapter of "Laws Concerning Idolatry"

* Goodness, for someone supposedly dedicated to complex thinking, you don't seem to have done your research very well. RW and Paperback have given you the information you need.

* I will star this for my Jewish contacts but I do not know myself.

* If you don't have a Jewish mother, that means you have to convert.

* In common with all other religions, Judaism has evolved, not appeared fully formed at one moment in history

* Is that not almost like what came first the chicken or the egg?? Honestly how can you get a true clear answer on this?

* Its quite simple, you don't have to have a Jewish mother to be Jewish.

* Since YOU are the one challenging our religion, the onus is on YOU to go and look at the scriptures. 'Cause it makes no difference to us WHAT you think or believe. You wanna know what the Torah says? Go and read it.

* The fact that there are non-Israelite mothers is NOT A PROBLEM. Conversion has always been open. And, as I pointed out originally, Judaism is a religion that has evolved from Abraham's time and did not arrive fully formed, any more than any other religion, political system, ethical approach or anything else did.

* there is also no debate that the beliefs that Abraham had were not identical to current Judaism. it was more of a proto-Jewish monotheistic belief that lead to Judaism. the difference is irrelevant

* Try asking a Jew. Try asking a rabbi.

* What makes you think the only way to be Jewish is to have a Jewish mother?

* Wow, the amount that you don't know.

* You seem to be extremely concerned about some pernickety detail of identity 3000 years ago. Does this have some relevance to today and Judaism, or is this historical curiosity (in which case, talking to an expert in ancient history might be more relevant that the R&S regulars), or are you trying to discredit Judaism? It would be helpful to know where you're coming from on this - we could provide answers more carefully tailored to your particular concern, which is distinctly unclear so far.

Over 90% of the text in replies were NON responses like to these to this challenge "You are a Jew if your mother was a Jew", there could have never been any such things as Jews.

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They repeated you could be a Jew by conversion, but that did not address the question of being a Jew by mother.

Abraham being a convert, what I do not know, ask a rabbi, not one line in the pink text above addressed the challenge I made about scriptural information that established one to be a Jew if their mother was a Jew.

Below was the only responses to my challenge

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After showing them that up till the time the Israelites entered into Egypt, there were no other Israelites on earth, my assertion was they could not be Jewish by mother because the grandchildren of Israel had nothing but non Jewish females to produce their tribes with.

The only feasible response was:

a) Sorry, I didn't realize you hadn't understood the sexism of the time - I was taking that for granted. Women, and often children too, weren't counted as they weren't what counted! Only women with specific roles or about whom there was a particular story could rely on a regular mention. And in fact, it is mentioned in verse 26 that all the wives of Jacob's sons were there but they're not counted.

b) As for the supposed lack of women who went to Egypt in Joseph's time, all you're reporting is the lack of mention of women, not the lack of their existence.

The two responses was (a) because it was a sexist time and many times women were not mentioned (b) there could have been other women that were not mentioned.

a) In the case of identifying the grandchildren that went into Egypt

GENESIS 47:17 And the sons of Asher; Jimnah, Ishuah, Isui, Beriah, and Serah their sister:

Indeed the granddaughter was NOT left out because of sexist views leaving out the identities of females.

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PERVERSION NOT TRANSLATION NOR INTERPRETATION

Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it...

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What is the importance of not adding or taking away information from the original text?

If you could add information that does not exist or take away information that does exist, you can make any religion or any law say any thing you want it to say.

You shall not worship other gods <> You shall not worship other gods except on Tuesdays.

Adding or taking away information is neither translation nor interpretation, it is nothing other than perversion.

The next response is achieved by adding mythical information to make their boat float.

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The next part of their argument used is ADDED mythical information based on what the scriptures do not say.

In one group I am is a master of proving the negative or proof by ignorance. This tactic consist of injecting non existent information based on ignorance.

The scriptures do not include that information, so we will use what the scriptures do not state as evidence of some "scriptural information"

There could have been other females who were not identified.

The scriptures do not say there were not other granddaughters of Israel.

Of course this is speculation based on ignorance.. proof by ignorance, evidence by ignorance.. ADDING non existent information to make your boat float.

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Let's play along and put this mythical information in the account then test it.

The speculation of this person is that Israel COULD HAVE HAD other unidentified grand daughters that his grandsons produced their tribes with.

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Who are the people listed in the context of chapter 46

Genesis 46:7 His sons, and his sons' sons with him, his daughters, and his sons' daughters, and all his seed brought he with him into Egypt.

Israel's daughters and his sons' daughters are in this set of ALL his seed.

1 Ard, 2 Areli, 3 Arodi, 4 Ashbel, 5 Becher, 6 Belah, 7 Beriah, 8 Carmi, 9 Dinah, 10 Ehi, 11 Elon, 12 Ephraim, 13 Eri, 14 Ezbon, 15 Gera, 16 Gershon, 17 Guni, 18 Haggi, 19 Hamul, 20 Hanoch, 21 Heber, 22 Hezron, 23 Huppim, 24 Hushim, 25 Ishuah, 26 Isui, 27 Jachin, 28 Jahleel, 29 Jahzeel, 30 Jamin, 31 Jemuel, 32 Jezer, 33 Jimnah, 34 Job, 35 Kohath, 36 Malchiel, 37 Manasseh, 38 Merari, 39 Muppim, 40 Naaman, 41 Ohad, 42 Phallu, 43 Pharez, 44 Phuvah, 45 Rosh, 46 Serah, 47 Sered, 48 Shaul, 49 Shelah, 50 Shillem, 51 Shimron, 52 Shuni, 53 Tola, 54 Zerah, 55 Ziphion, 56 Zohar

54 grandsons, 1 daughter and one granddaughter

Gen 46:27. ... all the souls of the house of Jacob, which came into Egypt, were threescore and ten = 70

56 + 12 sons = 68 + Jacob = 69 .. 1 unaccounted for

My statement was there was only one grand daughter for the grandchildren of Israel to produce their tribes and the counter statement where might have been unidentified daughters.

Here the total of ALL THE HOUSE (bayith=family) OF JACOB is 70 ... these are descendants of Jacob.

Genesis 46:7 ... all his seed brought he with him into Egypt.

That would exclude the mothers of his grandchildren, they were not the descendants of Jacob.

That leaves 1 person accounted for, so let's say the missing person was another female. Dinah was defiled by a Hivate in chapter 34 and there is no record of any descendant she ever had.

Adding Dinah, assuming the unaccounted person was another grand daughter and adding the one identified female Serah , that brings the total of 70 of the seed of Jacob that went into Egypt. 3 Females and 67 males .. the seed of Jacob that went into Egypt.

So if the 54 identified grandsons did produce their families with these 3 females, that means that each female produced their families by breeding with 18 grandsons.

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Under the specification of being Jewish if your mother is a Jew, there still would be no such thing as a Jew, because the women who produced the children of Israel were

Leah who's mother was neither a Jew nor an Israelite, Zilpah, Syrian hand maid of Leah, Rachel who's mother was neither a Jew nor an Israelite, Bilhah, Syrian hand maid of Rachel

Of the daughters and granddaughters of Israel who did go into Egypt, even if there were enough to go around, none of those daughters/granddaughters would have been Jewish under the specifications of "being Jewish through your mother" .. because non of their mothers were "Jewish"

In this bazaar scenario, of seed "3" women each producing their families with 18 men, there could be no Jews.. because this whole laughable hoax must have the first female who was a Jew and when they come up with that caper, I can expose their farce.. any "first female Jew", name her and we will look at the ramification of your choice.

Being Jewish through your mother is nothing but a concocted myth. There is no such thing as being a Jew through heredity. This assertion only comes from the lips of liars and the ignorant.

There is such a thing as being an Israelite through physical heredity and EVERY descendant of Jacob ever to exist is an Israelite. Millions of the seed/descendants of Israel would be counted in the descendants of the Israelites who were cast out in the book of Ezra.

Every descendant of Jacob/Israel ever to exist is an Israelite. The perversion of the original scriptural words to the word Jew.. the ONLY reason they had any importance was because that subset was the physical descendants of the man Israel.

There is no such thing as being Jewish through the mother.

There is no such thing as converting to become a Jew (another debunking)

Converts have no promises of God in the scriptures and no one can provide a shred of evidence of any such "conversions" in the Old Testament.. but there is evidence of non Israelites being excluded from the tabernacle.

God never gave the land of Israel to any European "converts", but the land is given to the seed of Abraham and if we look to the scriptures those Asian/African people are identified.

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ABRAHAM NOR ISAAC WERE

JEWS NOR ISRAELITES

GENESIS 11:28 (Abrahams) father Terah in the land of his nativity, in Ur of the Chaldees. (along with Sarah) Abraham and his brothers were Chaldeans

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ANCESTORS OF ABRAHAM

WERE ENEMIES OF THE ISRAELITES

Two of the mothers of the princes of Israel were descendants of Chaldeans but Chaldeans were enemies of the Israelites.

EZRA 5:12 Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, the Chaldean, who destroyed this house, and carried the people away into Babylon.

ISAIAH 048|020` Go you forth of Babylon, flee you from the Chaldeans

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ISRAEL/JACOB NOT A JEW

If having a "Jewish" mother is the definition of a Jew

* TWO SONS having the same mother, one could not be a Jew and the other not be.

* TWO brothers with the same grandmother, one could not be a Jew and the other not be.

Israel and Esau were the same brothers having the same mother and grandmother.

Unless the Edomites were Jews, then Israel/Jacob could not be a Jew.

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12 PRINCES OF ISRAEL NOT JEWS

The 12 princes had 4 different mothers.

Two descendants of the Chaldeans and two were hand maids like Haggar They were not Jews, so the 12 princes of Israel could not have been Jews.

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NO JEWS IN EGYPT?

When the grandchildren of Israel went into Egypt, there were 52 males and one female. (The female the daughter of a Syrian hand maid)

There were no other Israelites on earth. One grandson of Israel had nothing but 1 daughter of a hand maid Syrian and 51 of the grandsons had nothing but Egyptian girls for the mothers of their tribes.

If one a Jewish mother defines who is a Jew, how could there be any such thing as Jews?

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There is only one source, the Torah/OT which contains no such identification as being Jewish by mother.

No one can respond to the assertion "You are a Jew if your mother is a Jew", because this mythical definition is not information from the scriptures but from the imagination of those who called themselves rabbis.

This myth is like the King's Magic Clothes, once some one of authority asserts something to be fact, the loyal lemmings will never question it and those who see that is a farce, goes along with the hoax because they want to be accepted by their peers.

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No response to any of these questions:

There were multiple kings of the Israelites who were evil pagans which did not follow the laws of Moses.

These kings of the Israelites had NON Israelite mothers ..such as Jezebel.

Question

Were these Israelite kings "Jews"

yes or no?

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Genesis 41:45 And Pharaoh .. gave Joseph .. to wife Asenath the daughter of Potipherah priest of On (These Israelites could not have been Jewish by mother)

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Then we could see that the mother of Moses tribe was the Saudi Arabian, Midianite Zipporah (These Israelites could not have been Jewish by mother)

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We read in Ezra where the Israelites put away their non Israelites.

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Question: Weren't the Israelites in the book of Ezra already descendants of the Asian tribes they put away?

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Centuries before the Ezra account

Judges 3:5 The children of Israel dwelt among the Canaanites, Hittites, and Amorites, and Perizzites, and Hivites, and Jebusites

Judges 3:6 And they took their daughters to be their wives, and gave their daughters to their sons

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Numbers 31 The Israelites fought the Midianites and the command was to kill all non virgins, men, baby boys..

Numbers 31:17

Numbers 31:35 This was 32,000 virgins allowed to keep alive for themselves

Prepping the women

Deuteronomy 21:11 And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife;

After 10 generations there would be hundreds of thousands of Israelites from these Midianite grandmothers. Under the definition "Jewish"..mother

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Question: How could these Israelite children be "Jewish" under the mother definition?

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Leviticus 24:10 And the son of an Israelitish woman, whose father was an Egyptian,

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In the 430 of captivity did the Israelites ever cease to bred with the Egyptians?

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1 Chronicles 2:34 Now Sheshan had no sons, but daughters. And Sheshan had a servant, an Egyptian, whose name was Jarha... the Egyptian given as a husband to his daughter

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Did the Israelites ever cease from marrying every Asian/African tribe/nation they encountered?

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1 Kings 7:8 And his house where he dwelt had another court within the porch, which was of the like work. Solomon made also an house for Pharaoh's daughter, whom he had taken to wife,

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Did the Israelites ever cease from marrying every Asian/African tribe/nation they encountered?

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2 Samuel 11:3 David inquired after Bathsheba, the daughter of Eliam, the wife of Uriah the Hittite?

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Bathsheba, mother of Solomon, Under being Jewish by mother was Solomon a Jew?

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1 Kings 11:1 But king Solomon loved many strange women, together with the daughter of Pharaoh, women of the Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Zidonians, and Hittites:

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All children Solomon created with these women would have been Israelites (descendants of Israel) but under being Jewish by mother could any of these Israelites have been Jewish?

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I Kings 22:40 King Ahaziah could not have been a Jew, because his mother was Jezebel the Zidionian (Lebanese by today's area and nationality)

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Ezekiel 16:3 And say, Thus saith the Lord God unto Jerusalem; Thy birth and thy nativity is of the land of Canaan; thy father was an Amorite, and thy mother an Hittite

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Under being Jewish by mother, could any of these Israelites had been Jews?

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1 Kings 14:21 And Rehoboam the son of Solomon reigned... And his mother's name was Naamah an Ammonitess.

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Under the definition of Jewish by mother, could any of these kings of Israel had been Jews?

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Summary

a) Under the definition of being Jewish if your mother is a Jew, no such thing as a Jew could ever exist.. because the root grandmother of every Israelite was a non Jew, Non Israelite.

b) When you show them this fact some of them dance around and change the subject to Abraham, conversion, read this, read that, personal attacks.. but those who take time to read these family tree lines know all Israelites came from NON Jews gentiles, Moabites, Midianites, Chaldeans, Canaanites, Syrians, Hittites, Egyptians, Havites.

c) After those who take time to follow these lines to look for the "first Jewish" mother, they realize this farce is a mythical non existent being, but because they need to be accepted by their peers, they continue to see the king's magic clothing.

d) As far as being Jewish by conversion, we can look in the scriptures and see if this information exists or if this myth comes off the rack of the kings magic clothes.

e) Israelites are physical descendants of the man Jacob/Israel and there is nothing any one can do to become an Israelite and nothing an Israelite can do to cease to be Israelites.

f) Israelites are all descendants of Israel that is the meaning of the word

Israelite: Pronounced yis-raw-ale' ; Jisrael, a symbolical name of Jacob; also (typically) of his posterity

g) There are no promises given to any "converts" but to the seed of Abraham.. physical descendants.. and every descendant of Israel is an Israelite.

i)   Ruth converted farce  http://encyclopediaegypt.com/israel/f1400.htm

j) Using the scriptures and identifying all the non Israelite mothers/fathers that produced children with the Israelites and a conservative family tree projection we can create a spread sheet with variables and project the millions of descendants of Israel that are dispersed through out Asia and Africa.. the very places that God will gather the Israelites in the prophecy.

Isaiah 11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

As for the laughable hoax of any one "Being Jewish because their mother is a Jew", you now know it is by ignorance or blatant lies that these words come from their blabbering lips.

Every one who is a physical descendant of the man Israel/Jacob is an Israelite. There is no such thing as being "Jewish" by physical heredity, this farce is a concoction of a European cult and believed by mindless lemmings who dance to the strings pulled by their puppet masters. 

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